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RustyMcHayes
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« on: 26 December 2011, 10:20 PM »

I just can't understand what is going wrong this season, please can somebody help me get my head around it?

Is it Coyle and his tactical ineptitude?

Is it the players that are just not good enough, not interested, or just don't want to play for the club?

Is it a combination of both? If so then why did we do ok last year?

Is it just pure bad luck? Injuries, red cards, refereeing decisions etc?

Up until the semi last year, it had been a thoroughly enjoyable season but since then its all gone tits up. It is getting to the point were I am dreading going to games. My Dad does a 150 mile round trip to come and watch us. Before he went home tonight he said 'sorry lad I'm not sure if I am going to come on NYE'. To be honest I can't blame him, I don't want to go myself.
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DaveBWFC
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« Reply #1 on: 26 December 2011, 10:23 PM »

A manager who's tactics have been sussed by the other teams but doesn't have an alternative.

Bad signings.

Shít players.

Injuries.

Probably a few more things but I'll give others a chance to post some.
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Manny
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« Reply #2 on: 26 December 2011, 10:33 PM »

We've been poor since long before the semi final. Go back to this time last year. We won 2-0 against West Brom on Boxing Day and then went five league games without a win, scoring just two goals.

Sturridge signed and things improved for a while because we managed to find our scoring boots again. You could probably argue that his signing last season helped to keep us up.

The rot started again in the United game when Holden got injured. We lost that game and six of the last eight, only beating West Ham and Arsenal. We've carried that form into this season and it really doesn't look like we're going to turn the corner.

We've won just 9 league games in the whole of 2011. Woeful!
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aarons2009
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« Reply #3 on: 26 December 2011, 11:45 PM »

Our home form speaks volumes about us all season, won just one and lost the rest.

Were so poor no doubt about it but making individual errors don't help our cause.

I have now resigned myself to us being relegated, were just so poor its freightning.
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GarethWilliams
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« Reply #4 on: 27 December 2011, 10:22 AM »

A manager who's tactics have been sussed by the other teams but doesn't have an alternative.

Bad signings.

Shít players.

Injuries.

Probably a few more things but I'll give others a chance to post some.
Got it in 4 Dave.
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Gloria Stitz
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« Reply #5 on: 27 December 2011, 04:44 PM »

I don't read too much into the post-Cup-Semi-Final theory.

It went all tits up from there but there were several other contributing factors that occurred around that time.

Injuries to Holden and MDavies around that time meant we didn't have a midfield for the remainder of the season. And now this season, although we've got a midfield, we haven't replaced what the likes of Elmander, Sturridge and Lee gave us, i.e. pace, technique - just all round PL quality.

Thanks for reading,

Gloria.
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Bazzabomb
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« Reply #6 on: 27 December 2011, 09:06 PM »

bad management,crap tactics,shite players ect...ect...ect...
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Bazzabomb
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« Reply #7 on: 27 December 2011, 09:07 PM »

i forgot to add lots of injuries aswell thats always a good excuse
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Big_Sharps
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« Reply #8 on: 27 December 2011, 10:07 PM »

Anybody else think we could be going down on purpose to cut costs?
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H. Pedersen
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« Reply #9 on: 27 December 2011, 10:37 PM »

Anybody else think we could be going down on purpose to cut costs?

It's possible.  Most of our players are out of contract at the end of the season.  If we go down, we'll be able to shed some of the higher earners (Klasnic, Petrov) and re-negotiate lower wages for players who might want to stay on at that level (K. Davies, Jussi, Ricketts, etc.).  Presumably automatic pay cuts would kick in for the people under contract.

I don't know if it's so much a cost-cutting measure; I have this vague suspicion that Gartside and Coyle know a massive rebuilding is needed this summer and it might be easier to do it with a season in the Championship where guys like Pratley and Eagles might actually be an asset and we can try to find a few bargains and bring through a few kids.

Against that, you have to balance the reduced TV revenue and the distinct possibility that the fans will desert the Reebok in droves if they sense that we basically "took a dive."

It's plausible but it just seems a bit conspiratorial.  The more likely scenario is that:

1. Coyle doesn't have the talent to keep us up.
2. Davies doesn't have the money to keep us up.
3. Gartside doesn't have the will to keep us up.
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xmiles
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« Reply #10 on: 27 December 2011, 11:20 PM »

1. Coyle doesn't have the talent to keep us up.
2. Davies doesn't have the money to keep us up.
3. Gartside doesn't have the will to keep us up.

All of the above. We're doomed!
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« Reply #11 on: 28 December 2011, 10:34 AM »

I am normally very pro Gartside, but someone eluded to the fact on another thread that Gartside has a squad that would be easier to manage in the Championship. With around two thirds of or main first team players out of contract this summer, there may be an element of truth in that. We could face the drop with a lot more ease than other clubs have previously.
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Big_Sharps
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« Reply #12 on: 28 December 2011, 10:42 AM »

I am normally very pro Gartside, but someone eluded to the fact on another thread that Gartside has a squad that would be easier to manage in the Championship. With around two thirds of or main first team players out of contract this summer, there may be an element of truth in that. We could face the drop with a lot more ease than other clubs have previously.

It's as if with Lee Chung Yong and Stuart Holden they probably thought we have enough to stay up and the rest who are Championship players will be on low wages so that if worst comes to worst and we do go down we are not fucked and if we do stay up then mission complete.

Your post is the reason why I do not feel guilty about not going because it looks as if this was the master plan anyway.
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wanderer6969
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« Reply #13 on: 28 December 2011, 05:10 PM »

I just can't understand what is going wrong this season, please can somebody help me get my head around it?


Keeper:  At the start of the season, the keeping situation was dire, Jussi was playing like a man with zero confidence.  When Bogdan came in, he was Conference standard at best.  Fortunately Jussi seems to have turned it around and playing at 75% like his old self, which might just be enough til the end of the season.  Why on earth we sold Al Habsi is a mystery.  We could have sold Jussi and Bogdan to save the £3m or so we got for Ali, and then stuck with the reserve keeper. Make no mistake, (unlike our keepers), this has cost us and will cost us several priceless points this season.

Defence:  Fullbacks: have cost us a goal each per game on average.  Absolutely terrible, give the ball away, ball watch, let their man go, fail to block shots, offer absolutely nothing up front, and generally league 2 standard at best. Robinson, Steinnson and Boyata absolutely atrocious.  If we can get Reilly back at RB and Gardner at LB that will help. Reilly and Gardner are our only current hope unless we can get two decent ones in January. Isn't Jimmy Phillips still on our books? He'd do a better job than Robinson and he was sh!te when he was here!

Centre halves:  Wheater, Cahill and Knight have been average, cost us games by getting sent off, distribution generally poor, offer nothing in attach at corners, low on confidence, however have the potential to keep us up if they are supported by good keeping and midfield.  I don't think we'll miss Cahill that much if he goes, if we can get £5m or above, then go for it. We should have taken this amount in the summer (if we were ever offered it of course). Best combo would be Wheater (if he can avoid red cards, the to$$er) and Knight / Ricketts.

Midfield: Too many average players with poor performances.  Pratley, absolutely useless player, no desire, commitment, skill.  I never could see the point of signing him, average championship player at best. Reo-Coker is a squad player at best and if you have to reply on him then you're in trouble. Muamba is useful when used at the right time and can break up play and shore up the midfield, distrubution terrible. Eagles has had good and bad games, he gives the ball away way too much however, if he can be consistent he could be ok for us.  A City fan told me we'd get one good game in 5 from Petrov when we signed him, and he wasn't wrong. Robinson and Petrov are a lethal combination together (in the wrong way) and Petrov needs to be used in the right way.  M Davies has been a decent player recently and deserves to start if he can keep up his form, along with him, CYL and Stu Holden our our only hope.  If we can get those two back asap, I'd have Lee on the right, Holden and Muamba in Midfield and Petrov or Kakuta on the left,  as it stands now, I'd have Eagles on the right, Muamba and Mavies in the middle with Petrov or Kakuta on the left.  They'd need to give 110% or be off.

Forwards:  Ngog is a total waste of time, money, air. No skill, desire, commitment, eye for goal. Just a total over paid journeyman. I'd sell him for whatever we could in January and call it a bad deal. KDavies isn't having his best season but he's 10x better than Ngog. KDavies seems to have lost a yard of pace (not that he had much) and seems to be on a downer which is unacceptable at this level. If he can get some commitment back he might be able to go on a run of games and be useful.  Coyle doesn't like long ball which is why Davies isn't getting any action. However I think most Bolton fans would take long ball right now if it helped us get out of the sh!t. Klasnic can get goals as he's proved but is getting poor service and even when the ball eventually breaks for him he seems to have a bad attitude which isn't helping.

Manager / Tactics:  People were saying Megson was tactically inept. Coyle makes him look like Alex Ferguson.  Very one dimensional, thinks by trying to be 100% positive all the time is enough... it isn't. Anyone can be positive and encourage everyone all the time but it isn't enough when things aren't going well.  When you've had a bad run of injuries / decisions / fixtures you need more in your locker and he has been found out. His backroom staff don't seem to be of much help. He needs a top class defensive coach. Getting rid of Fred Barber was a bad decision as goalkeeping coach. This definitely has had an impact on the keeping situation.  We have been getting beat time and time again from the same positions. It took him 6 games before he tried something different at left back.   He doesn't seem to learn from any mistakes. His tactics and team selections have been bizarre.  Taking off Muamba for Eagles against NUFC was a classic example. Better to have ground out a boring 0-0 draw than gamble for Eagles (who probably gives the ball away more than any other player) for Muamba who at least can defend.  With our full backs as they are, you can't afford to take any risks as they will backfire 90% of the time as proved with the sib decision.  All that happened was Eagles gave the ball away (surprise) and we got caught out at right back (surprise) allowed a cross to come in (surprise) and then couldn't defend it in the middle (surprise).  One minute later Robinson gave the ball away (surprise), refused to tackle and allowed the attacker inside the box (surprise and basic mistake), allowed the cross (surprise) and we couldn't defend in the middle (surprise).   This was Coyle's fault.  We could have ground out a 0-0 draw which would have been boring, but would allowed us to have built on the win against the Dingles and maybe gave us another ounce of confidence going in to the Wolves game.  Instead we're right back in the sh!te, thanks to Coyle, his tactics and team selections.  If you're going to drop KDavies, then fine, but don't replace him with someone who's not even good enough for the reserves.

I don't buy the conspiracy theory that we're deliberately trying to go down for the finance situation.  Everyone wants to stay in the Premiership, we gambled on Coyle and it's failed.  The club always try to have contingency in going down.  We can only hope that Coyle learns very quickly from this but the signs aren't good.

He needs to pull a few rabbits out of the hat in January, starting with two strong fullbacks, and someone who can score.  If we need to sell Cahill to fund it, then fine.

Oh, and if he starts with Robinson and / or Boyata against Wolves, then it proves he is as thick as pig sh!t.

Our only hope is if all the players play to their potential and we start with a half decent team:

                    Jussi
Ricketts      Wheater Cahill         Anyone other than Robinson
                    Muamba
Eagles         Mavies                 Petrov / Kakuta
             Klasnic       Davies (Tuncay and Ngog are worse)

Muamba needs to stay back, cover for the shaky defence and give the ball to Mavies at every opportunity.
We need to go long when necessary.
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DaveBWFC
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« Reply #14 on: 28 December 2011, 05:26 PM »

Coyle doesn't like long ball? His current team doesn't play like that. Even when Kevin Davies isn't on the pitch the ball still gets twatted long for Klasnic and NGog. I lost count on Monday how many times Jussi kicked it straight to the Newcastle keeper. Coyles promises of good football have hardly happened this year.
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Howfen White
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« Reply #15 on: 28 December 2011, 05:29 PM »

It's a mix of a lot of things, bad signings, bad luck (with injuries), poor tactics.

Teams that have come to the Reebok this season have been there for the taking, the likes of Newcastle, Everton and Villa have walked away with three points without really being that good. It's just we're shitter, and the only faint hope I've got at the moment is that the matches we have won so far have been against teams that are in and around us in the league barring Stoke, and if we continue to do that then we could just about stay up but I don't think it will be enough.
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« Reply #16 on: 28 December 2011, 06:35 PM »

Why on earth we sold Al Habsi is a mystery.  We could have sold Jussi and Bogdan to save the £3m or so we got for Ali, and then stuck with the reserve keeper. Make no mistake, (unlike our keepers), this has cost us and will cost us several priceless points this season.

Al Habsi has hardly covered himself in glory at Wigan this season. He's very similar to Jussi was a few years back. A good shot stopper but prone to the odd calamity mistake.
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H. Pedersen
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« Reply #17 on: 28 December 2011, 07:00 PM »

Al Habsi has hardly covered himself in glory at Wigan this season. He's very similar to Jussi was a few years back. A good shot stopper but prone to the odd calamity mistake.

Yeah but unfortunately Jussi is no longer even a good shot stopper.
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Quiroga
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« Reply #18 on: 28 December 2011, 07:31 PM »

Coyle doesn't like long ball? His current team doesn't play like that. Even when Kevin Davies isn't on the pitch the ball still gets twatted long for Klasnic and NGog. I lost count on Monday how many times Jussi kicked it straight to the Newcastle keeper. Coyles promises of good football have hardly happened this year.

There were so many things wrong with wanderers 6969 post I didn't know where to begin but that ^ does for starters
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LightningBolton
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« Reply #19 on: 29 December 2011, 12:21 AM »

Anybody else think we could be going down on purpose to cut costs?

Its hard to believe that anyone would want a club to go down on purpose but Gartside & Davies would certainly see it as an opportunity so wouldn't be too upset.
Their main concern should be the long term stability of the club. It's more likely to be their own wealth & Davies would ideally like to get the club to somewhere near saleable. Either way they know things have to change.

Thanks to them we've gone from breaking even with a steady debt of £29mill in 2006 to losing £35 million a year & a £110 million ever-expanding debt. Even with this shocking financial performance Gartside & his mates still pay themselves whopping great bonuses every year.

Our wage to turnover ratio is over 85% (UEFA's recommended max is 70%)

To get anywhere near to breaking even & adhere to Financial Fair Play Rules drastic cuts have to take place which would be much easier if we went down.

The thing is with the massive shortfall in revenue there'll be (even with parachute payments) & Davies not wanting to throw more money in I doubt we'll even offer average Championship wages. This is why they want to keep Coyle so badly after what he achieved on Burnley's miniscule budget.
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« Reply #20 on: 29 December 2011, 01:05 AM »

Relegation will be a financial disaster, losses of £30m a year and a ballooning debt which is now nearly £100m will be unsustainable without the Sky TV money.
All the players out of contract in June will have to be released or accept vastly reduced wages, the wages of the playes who aren't out of contract would be unaffordable,so most of them would have to be sold, and we would have to rebuild almost an entire team with no money.
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wanderer6969
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« Reply #21 on: 29 December 2011, 01:57 AM »

Coyle doesn't like long ball? His current team doesn't play like that. Even when Kevin Davies isn't on the pitch the ball still gets twatted long for Klasnic and NGog. I lost count on Monday how many times Jussi kicked it straight to the Newcastle keeper. Coyles promises of good football have hardly happened this year.

Name me one professional team world wide where the keeper DOESN'T kick it long when they have to (I.e. All the defenders are marked).
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Jamster26
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« Reply #22 on: 29 December 2011, 09:53 AM »

I think Daves' point is that it happens far too often.
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DaveBWFC
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« Reply #23 on: 29 December 2011, 10:28 AM »

Name me one professional team world wide where the keeper DOESN'T kick it long when they have to (I.e. All the defenders are marked).

So you think other teams twat the ball from one keeper to the other keeper 10 times in the first 25 minutes? That's what happened on Monday. It was pathetic.
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GarethWilliams
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« Reply #24 on: 29 December 2011, 01:01 PM »

As Dave said it was ridiculous against Newcastle, Jussi via N'Gog via Krul time after time,
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Left to right:
Back row: Ron Phillips, Alan Boswell, John Ritson, Peter Clarke, John Hulme, Paul Jones..
Middle row: Eddie Hopkinson (Trainer), Charlie Hurley, Roy Greaves, Gareth Williams, Don McAllister, Paul Hallows, Arthur Marsh, John Manning, Jim Conway (Coach).

Front row: Warwick Rimmer, John Byrom, Paul Fletcher, Garry Jones, Jimmy Meadows (Team Manager), Jim Redfern, Ian Seddon, Chris Duffy, Roger Hunt.
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